In this week’s behavior, we discuss how seeking prestige can be dangerous for writers, specifically in the form of MFA degrees and literary agents.
This week’s coupon code will get you 50% off the audiobook of Dragonskull: Sword of the Squire, Book #1 in the Dragonskull series (as excellently narrated by Brad Wills), at my Payhip store:
SQUIRE50
The coupon code is valid through March 14, 2025. So if you need a new audiobook for spring, we’ve got you covered!
00:00:00 Introduction and Writing Updates
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 240 of The Pulp Writer Show. My name is Jonathan Moeller. Today is February the 20th, 2025, and today we are discussing how to escape the trap of prestige that can sometimes catch writers, specifically in the form of MFA degrees and literary agents. Before we get into greater detail with that, we will start with Coupon of the Week and then an update on my current writing projects and then also a Question of the Week before we get to the main topic.
But first, let’s start with Coupon of the Week. This week’s coupon code will get you 50% off the audiobook of Dragonskull: Sword of the Squire, Book One of the Dragonskull series (as excellently narrated by Brad Wills), at my Payhip store. And that coupon code is SQUIRE50. The coupon code is valid through March 14th, 2025. So if you need a new audiobook as we head into spring, we have got you covered.
Now let’s have an update on current writing projects. I am 94,000 words into Ghost in the Assembly. I had two 10,000 word days this week, which really moved the needle forward. We’ll talk about those a little bit more later. I’m on Chapter 18 of 21, I believe, and if all goes well, I should hopefully finish the rough draft before the end of the month because I would like to get editing on that as soon as possible. For my next book, that will be Shield of Battle and I am 8,000 words into that and I’m hoping that’ll come out in April. Ghost in the Assembly will be in March, if all goes well.
In audiobook news, recording for Cloak of Dragonfire (as excellently narrated by Hollis McCarthy) is finished and also recording on Orc-Hoard, the fourth book of the Half-Elven Thief series (as excellently narrated by Leanne Woodward). Both of those should be coming out sometime in March, if all goes well. So that’s where I’m at with my current writing projects.
00:01:45 Question of the Week
And now let’s move on to Question of the Week. Question of the Week is intended to inspire interesting discussions of enjoyable topics. This week’s question, if you have off work or school because of a snow day or extreme cold or other intense weather, what do you do with the day? No wrong answers. We had a number of responses to this.
Surabhi says: Ha, jokes on you! It never snows where I live. We do sometimes bunk school on rainy days, though. What I mostly do then is catching up on homework or listening to the rain.
Justin says: We’re having a snow day here; schools and many businesses are closed. So Lord of the Rings Extended Edition movie marathon! Popcorn popped, hot cocoa and cold soda prepped.
I have to admit, that seems like a very good idea.
Mary says: Read, write, watch the snow fall, try to exercise inside.
Michael says: That hasn’t happened to me since about 1985, but I seem to recall it was on my birthday and boy was I happy to miss school on my birthday! I think I read fantasy books, drank tea, and played video games.
Juana says: curl up with a book and hot chocolate or tea.
John says: Haven’t had a snow day since I was a child, but I did either play in the snow or read a book (at that age, Andre Norton, Lester del Rey, or Ben Bova). I’m relocating later this year back to colder climes, but since I now only work remotely and have for the past six years, sadly my days change very little.
Jenny says: Usually shovel snow, make a pot of warm food, more snow removal, watch movies or shows.
Bob says: I’m retired now, so probably not much different than any other day, but when I was working, I’d probably be out shoveling snow so I can get to work whenever the roads were clear. Of course, that necessitated more shoveling when the snowplow dumped its load across the end of my driveway and that’s why I moved south, where I rarely see snow.
Yes, if you live in a colder climes and you have a driveway, you know that you’ll shovel the driveway and then immediately when you’re done, these snowplow will come and block up the end of the driveway.
Finally, Dan says: For myself, I enjoy a free day. However, soon the home duties encroach on this free time.
For myself, the answer is clearly that I write 10,000 words on the first snow day and then again on the second day because I just had two days in a row where it was too cold to leave the house. So what I did was stay home and wrote 20,000 words of Ghost in the Assembly.
00:03:54 Main Topic: Escaping the Trap of Prestige, Part I
Now onto our main topic of the week, Escaping the Trap of Prestige, Part I-as it pertains to MFA (Master of Fine Arts) degrees and agents. I’d like to preface this by saying that I’m not looking to knock anyone who has a MFA or who has a literary agent, especially if it’s working out for you and you’re happy with it. What I’m trying to do here is warn younger writers who are just starting out about the potential consequences of these things, which can be very severe if you choose wrongly. So that is my goal with this episode, to help writers escape the potentially bad consequences of the prestige trap because newer writers in particular want validation. I mean, we all want validation, but writers especially want validation and new writers are very vulnerable to wanting validation to the point where it’s been well known for years that there’s a large scam industry of various things that take advantage of newer writers looking for validation such as vanity publishers, scammy agents, and a wide variety of other online publishing scams.
This isn’t to say that MFAs and literary agents are scams, though some literary agents have committed serious crimes (as we’ll discuss later), but again, to warn against the danger of wanting prestige too badly and the bad decisions that can lead you to make. And some of this comes from the idea of success in life, especially in the United States and large parts of the Western world, is hitting certain milestones in a specific order. Like you graduate from college, you get a good job, you get married, you buy a house, you have your first kid, and if you don’t do these things in the right order, there’s something wrong with you and you have made mistakes in life, which isn’t necessarily true, but is something that people can fall fall prey to and use to make destructive decisions. In the writing world, some of those measures of success have until fairly recently been getting a Master of Fine Arts degree, finding an agent, getting traditionally published, and hitting the New York Times list.
As of this recording, I have sold well over 2 million books without following that normal route to writing success. In fact, I think it’s closer to 2.25 million now, and I mention that not to toot my own horn, but to say that there are routes outside of the potentially dangerous prestige paths I’m talking about. And despite that, many aspiring writers feel they must follow that specific route to writer success, otherwise they aren’t real writers. They’ve got to get the MFA, the agent, traditionally published, and then the New York Times list. The quest for prestige can keep writers from succeeding in two ways that are more significant, getting their work in front of readers who want to read it and deriving income from writing. So today in the first part of this two part episode series, we’re going to talk about two of those writing markers of prestige, MFAs and literary agents. Why are they no longer as important? What should you devote your energy and focus to instead?
So number one, the Master of Fine Arts trap. The Master of Fine Arts in writing has often been seen as a marker of writing ability, especially in the world of literary fiction. And I think the big problem, one of the big problems with MFA, first of all is cost. Getting a Master of Fine Arts degree is expensive, especially if you are not fortunate enough to receive scholarships or assistantships and so have to rely on student loans. The average cost of an MFA program is in the mid five figures when all is said and done, not even counting living expenses and textbooks and so forth. If you have to take out student loans to pay for that, that is a considerable loan burden, especially if you already have loans from your undergraduate degree.
Even the people who get their MFA paid for (usually in exchange for teaching introductory writing classes to first year university students), the opportunity cost of taking two to three years to get this degree means you’re sacrificing other things in your personal and professional life in order to get this MFA. It’s a huge outlay of time and energy, especially if you’re moving across the country for a residential program. And what are you getting in exchange for this massive outlay of time, money, and effort?
You probably aren’t going to learn the practical non-writing skills that you need in the modern writing world like marketing, data collection and analysis, and publication strategies (all of which I do on a fairly regular basis in addition to writing). All of these skills are important for writers now, even if they are traditionally published. The problem with many MFA programs is that they rarely, if ever teach these skills. It seems that what MFAs train their students to do is to become adjunct faculty professors with semester to semester contracts, which can pay around $2,000 to $4,000 USD per writing or literature course at most small to mid-size colleges and universities in the United States. Being an adjunct professor does not confer any benefits like health insurance or retirement funds.
I was talking about this episode with my podcast transcriptionist and she mentioned once she was at a faculty meeting where an adjunct professor in English with an MFA did the math and realized based on her hourly wage (based on all the actual hours she put into a semester), if she worked at the local gas station chain, she would be making $7 per hour more at the local gas chain and she would be only working 40 hours a week. That can be a very dismaying realization, especially after all the work you have put into getting an MFA and teaching.
Many defenders of the MFA degree will say that the real value of the degree is learning how to take criticism and learning to edit. But if you’re writing in a genre outside of literary fiction, poetry, and memoirs, you are not likely to find a lot of useful advice. To return to my transcriptionist’s tales from her time inside academia, she once told me of meeting a faculty member who confessed that he never read a fantasy book and had no idea how to critique or help these students, and he was a writing professor. He meant well, but he’s not even remotely an outlier in terms of MFA instructors and their familiarity with mysteries, romance, and science fiction works and fantasy, which is what most genre fiction is nowadays. Also, the quality of advice and help you receive varies wildly based on the quality of your cohort and instructors and their willingness to help others. It’s a steep investment with very, very uncertain returns.
So in short, an MFA takes a huge outlay of time and money with very few tangible benefits, especially with genre writers. In all frankness I would say an MFA is the kind of degree you should not go into debt to get and you should only get if you can have it paid for through scholarships or assistantships or so forth.
So what should you do, in my opinion, other than an MFA degree? I think you should write as much as possible. You get better by practicing. You should read extensively. You will learn about writing by reading extensively, ideally in more than one genre. If you read enough and write enough, eventually you get to the moment where you read something and think, hey, I could do a better job than this. This is a major boost in confidence for any writer.
It might be a good idea to join a local or online writing group if you’d like critique from other writers. A warning that writing groups can vary wildly in quality and some of them have a bad case of crab bucket syndrome, so you may have to try more than one group to find one that works for you.
Another thing to do would be to listen to advice from successful writers. I saw a brief video from an author who recently pointed out that many people online giving writing advice aren’t current or successful writers. One of the downsides of the Internet is that anyone can brand themselves an expert, whip together a course, and sell it online for a ridiculous fee. And people like this, their successes in creating methods or courses that turn writing into something more complicated to make aspiring writers reliant upon that process. Aspiring writers may end up spinning their wheels following all of these steps instead of getting to the actual work of churning out drafts. They may be spending money they can’t afford in order to learn ineffective or even damaging strategies.
Many successful writers offer sensible advice for free, such as Brandon Sanderson posting his writing lectures for free on his YouTube channel. If you’re looking for writing advice, you could do a lot worse than watching those lectures. And if you’re going to take advice from anyone you read on the internet, it’s probably better to take advice from successful writers who have demonstrated that they know what they are doing.
And finally, this may be more general advice, but it’s a good idea to be open to learning and observing new experiences. It’s probably a good idea to go to museums and cultural events, read about the latest developments in science and history, go on a hike in a new place, and observe the world around you. New writers often ask where writers get their ideas come from, and they very often come from just serendipitous things you can observe in the world around you. And that is also a good way to get out of your own head. If you’re worried too much about writing, it’s probably time to go for a long walk.
So why are agents potentially dangerous to writers? For a long time (for a couple decades, in fact), from I’d say from maybe the ‘80s and the ‘90s to the rise of the Kindle in the 2010s, the only realistic way to get published for most writers in terms of fiction was to get a literary agent. Publishers did not take unsolicited submissions (most of them did not), and you had to go through an agent to send your manuscript to a publisher. The agents were very selective for a variety of reasons.
Because of that, a lot of newer writers still idealize the process of getting agents. You’ll see this on Twitter and other social media platforms where new writers will talk constantly about getting agents and what they have to do. And the ones who do get a request from an agent to send in the full manuscript after sending a few query chapters are just besides themselves with joy. And those who do get agents can sometimes sound like they’re showing off their new boyfriend or girlfriend, like my agent says they like my book, or my agent says this or that. And as you can probably imagine from my description, this is an arrangement that has a lot of potential danger for the writer.
The traditional first step in this time period I was mentioning after finishing a book has been to get as prestigious of an agent as possible to contact publishers and negotiate deals on their behalf. The agent takes 10 to 20% of what a publisher pays a writer, but in theory can get a writer a better deal and are acting in their best business interests. And as I mentioned before, most significantly, most publishers are not willing to read submissions that are not submitted by an agent. If getting traditionally published is the goal, an agent is the crucial first step. I mean, that’s the ideal that we’ve been talking about. In reality, traditional publishing is as cautious and risk averse as it has ever been. Agents have followed suit. It takes industry connections and/or a significant social media presence to even get an agent to look at your book.
Writing query letters and trying to get an agent also takes away from writing and is a completely separate skillset, as is the networking and social media work that is part of this process. Some people have spent months or even years working on query letters and getting an agent when they could have finished another book or more in the same time. Alright, so that is the practical and logistical reasons it’s a bad idea for a writer to seek out an agent, and I frankly think you’d be better off. And now we get to the potentially criminal ones.
The thing about literary agents is there’s no licensing or requirement or anything of that nature. You can set up a website and call yourself a literary agent. If you consider something like a lawyer, by contrast, I’m sure those of you who are lawyers in the United States will have many complaints and stories about your state bar, which is in charge of licensing lawyers. But the point is that the state bar exists, and if a lawyer is behaving in an unethical or unscrupulous matter, that can be brought as complaint to the state bar.
Nothing like that exists for literary agents at all. And because of that, scammy agents are everywhere. Some try to get writers to pay a fee upfront or other made up fees, or they get cuts from scammy book publishers or book packaging services. Or in general, they just try to squeeze every penny possible from aspiring writers. And this is often sadly very easy to do because as we’ve mentioned, many newer writers still think getting an agent is a major mark of prestige and humans crave prestige. And even if you get a prestigious and seemingly legitimate agent, that can potentially lead to life ruining problems because many of the legitimate agents are very sticky fingered.
Several years ago, the firm of Donadio and Olson, which represented Fight Club author Chuck Palahniuk, Godfather author Mario Puzo, and Catch 22 author Joseph Heller found out that one of their accountants had been stealing millions from their authors for many years.
Although the accountant was sentenced to two years of prison, it’s unlikely those authors will receive the money back fully. As Palahniuk put it in a blog post, “the legal process will be long and offers an iffy reward.” Mr. Palahniuk also lost out on money from touring to promote his books because of this crisis and said he was unable to support himself financially as a result of these stolen royalties.
By not filtering your royalties and earning statements through a literary agency that can falsify reports about these documents (as the accountant in question did), you have a full sense of what you are earning and what amounts you should be receiving. Amazon is open to many criticisms because of its decisions, but they pay monthly and they send a very detailed spreadsheet monthly to any Kindle authors of what books sold and what they expect to earn. It’s sometimes almost too much data to process. The traditional publishing world would never even consider showing that to writers and agents often keep that from their writers. Palahniuk trusted his agency and accepted the explanations that rampant piracy and financial difficulties in the publishing world were keeping over a million dollars in royalties from him. He even later found out that this accountant was keeping non-financial correspondence from him.
Returning to the topic of Brandon Sanderson, I recently saw an interview between him and a podcaster Tim Ferris. He made the interesting point that the power centers in publishing have shifted from traditional publishing agents to the platform holders and the writers, the platform holders being people like Amazon, Apple, and Google who have the platforms that sell the books and the writers who bring the books to those platforms. The power is shifted away from agents and publishers to the platforms and writers. And because of that, in my frank opinion, literary agents are obsolete for those wishing to publish independently.
And my frank opinion is also that you should be independently publishing and not trying to get an agent or go with a traditional publisher. There’s no reason to give someone 15% when you can upload the files to a service like KDP yourself. An agent will not be able to get you a better royalty from KDP. Amazon does not negotiate royalty rates at the agent level, and you have to be a writer on the scale of J.K. Rowling or maybe Dean Koontz to get any kind of special deal from Amazon.
So what should you do instead of seeking out an agent? Publish independently or self-publish. Be wary of excuses and explanations that prey upon emotional responses or a sense of loyalty to individuals, such as the case of Chuck Palahniuk, where they preyed on his fears of piracy and the instability of the publishing industry, as well as sympathy for someone who claimed to be taking care of a family member with a terminal disease. That was one of the excuses they used for why the records weren’t right. Ask for facts and verify everything regularly. Publishers and agents are not your friends and not your family, and do not accept that approach in your business relationship with them.
Learn how to read and interpret any financial statements you receive. Don’t trust a third party to do this for you, or if you must do that, make sure they’re being audited regularly by a third party, not from just someone else at their firm.
So the conclusion is that in my opinion, the prestige of getting an MFA and an agent are currently not worth the trade-off and there are considerable risks that you take if your main goals are to build a following and sell books. Prestige is not going to put food on the table. And in fact, if you have five figures of student loan debt from an MFA, it may be keeping you from putting food on the table. So if you want to be a writer, I think both seeking out an MFA and seeking out an agent would be a waste of your time and possibly counterproductive.
Next week in Part Two, we’ll discuss two more prestige traps in writing: getting traditionally published and hitting the New York Times Bestseller List.
That is it for this week. Thank you for listening to The Pulp Writer Show. I hope you found the show useful. A reminder that you can listen to all the backup episodes on https://thepulpwritershow.com. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review on your podcasting platform of choice. Stay safe and stay healthy and see you all next week.
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